tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9030466169805301132.post7552513548983243404..comments2023-07-03T05:28:20.670-07:00Comments on Parshanut: Toledot II: Morality independent of TorahEMThttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05785903047024077129noreply@blogger.comBlogger2125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9030466169805301132.post-37051787377910186142007-11-17T18:46:00.000-08:002007-11-17T18:46:00.000-08:00To be more precise, I should have said "capable of...To be more precise, I should have said "capable of standing independent of Torah", so as not to imply that it remains independent after the revelation at Sinai, which is a bolder claim than I think Rashbam is necessarily making here. But I would push you a bit to show where these earlier "covenants" with the Avot are clearly said to be the source of this sort of basic moral behavior. The language in Rashi and Rashbam seems to suggest that Avraham comes to this on his own and so might any future person. But perhaps I just haven't understood your point here fully.EMThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05785903047024077129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9030466169805301132.post-80878004854915699262007-11-16T00:51:00.000-08:002007-11-16T00:51:00.000-08:00i disagree with your assessment that these element...i disagree with your assessment that these elements are independent of Torah. i think they are - and that Rashbam is saying - that they are a proto-Torah that was later enshrined in the Torah. the Sinai covenant was a more detailed and explicit renewal of these same covenants that God made with the Patriarchs (and perhaps even Noah and Adam). <BR/>this reverses the 'traditional' understanding of the patriarchs keeping the Torah before it was given, in that it's not saying that they kept it because it was Torah, rather that it's Torah because they kept it.<BR/>much more can be said on this topic, which really touches the heart of the productive tension between myth and law.ADDeRabbihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11749876612695930184noreply@blogger.com